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Associated Press
This is the last known photo of Huguette Clark, taken 80 years ago. She hid away in a New York hospital room for at least the past 22 years, until her death in May. This photo was made on Aug. 11, 1930, the day of her divorce, in Reno, Nev. Her marriage lasted two years. She had no children.
NEW YORK — More than $3 million dollars on dolls. Nearly $2 million to her attorney's favorite charity. Another $380,000 in checks written to the staff on a single day, just as the press started to ask questions. And a magic bottomless checking account with $43 million to spend.
These details emerge from court documents filed in the early stages of a legal battle over the $400 million copper-mining fortune of the late reclusive heiress Huguette Clark. The documents give us new glimpses into the life of one of America's richest families. And they raise new questions about the actions of her attorney and accountant, who remain under criminal investigation even after her death in May at 104.
Attorneys are readying for a battle in the probate court known as Surrogate's Court in Manhattan. The building is less than a mile from Exchange Place near Wall Street, where Clark's father, former U.S. Sen. William Andrews Clark, managed the fortune he made from the mines of Montana and Arizona, and from banks, railroads and other ventures. Clark's relatives, kin from her father's first marriage, are expected in coming weeks to challenge her last will and testament, which cut out her family entirely, leaving about $34 million to her nurse and more than $17 million to her attorney and accountant through fees and direct bequests.
In this early phase of the massive estate case, her attorney and accountant have had to account to the court for all financial transactions they made using her legal power of attorney. They held that power, in various forms, for the last 15 years of her life, beginning in July 1996 when she was 90 years old.
The attorney and accountant are also being investigated by the Manhattan district attorney after questions were raised in a series of articles on msnbc.com about the sale of various properties owned by Clark, and about how the attorney and accountant ended up owning one of the homes of another elderly client. The pair asked the court to keep their financial accounting secret, arguing that they wanted to protect Clark's privacy. But the court rejected their request, making the following details available for anyone to read at the Surrogate's Clerks office.
In all, the records show $126.3 million in spending by her attorney and accountant from her accounts during those 15 years, and another $43.3 million that was transferred into her personal account, apparently to cover her own spending. The total of $170 million works out to $1 million per month for a woman who never left her hospital room during that time.
Among the highlights of the financial disclosure, drawn from the hundreds of pages of court records:
While her attorney and accountant were writing the checks for all the expenses for her three empty mansions, for her health care, for her staff, her legal expenses and all the rest, Huguette Clark had her own personal checkbook. We don't yet have the details of the checks that she wrote, but the accounting does show how much was transferred into her checking account, in lumps of $50,000, $200,000, even $5 million at a time. Between January 1997 and February 2009, a period of 12 years when she was between 90 and 102 years old, her magic checkbook was refilled in the amount of $43,325,000.
Au Nain Bleu, a renowned doll and toy shop in Paris, was paid $2.5 million in 110 separate payments from 1997 to 2006. One of Clark's friends has said that her dolls were "her closest companions." The largest payment was for $82,513 in February 2004.
Theriault's doll auctions received $729,000 in 21 payments from 1997 to 2009. The largest was $232,680 in July 2007.
Christopher Sadowski
Attorney Wallace "Wally" Bock says he has always done exactly what his client, heiress Huguette Clark, has asked. He acknowledged soliciting from her a gift of $1.5 million for the community where his daughter and grandchildren live. Court records show the amount to be $1.85 million.
Clark, who was raised a Roman Catholic, made several large contributions to Jewish settlements on the West Bank, where her attorney's daughter lives. Msnbc.com disclosed in 2010 that the attorney, Wallace "Wally" Bock, 79, asked Clark to contribute $1.5 million to a security system for his daughter's settlement. Bock acknowledged that payment in a legal filing last year. The new accounting shows that the total was actually $1.85 million. Bock or Clark's accountant, convicted felon and registered sex offender Irving Kamsler, 64, wrote four checks on her account totaling $1.65 million from 2000 through 2002 to the Central Fund of Israel. Then in September 2003, Bock wrote a check on her account for $200,000 to American Friends of New Communities in Israel.
The accounting shows that Kamsler received a stipend for his accounting services, peaking at $7,500 a month, or a rate of $90,000 per year. Bock's law firm was paid $18,000 to $25,000 per month, or about $250,000 per year. If the will is upheld, they stand to gain much more. Bock and Kamsler would receive $500,000 each as beneficiaries, and about $8 million each if the court allows them to serve as executors of her estate, with additional fees or salary as directors of a charitable foundation to be established to show her art in her California mansion. Both men have declined to comment on their actions, but their spokesmen have said the men both acted honorably in carrying out Clark's wishes.
The most remarkable day covered by the financial disclosure may have been Nov. 16, 2009. This was one month after this reporter met with Bock at his office and made clear that msnbc.com was going to publish a story raising questions about Clark's whereabouts and financial affairs. On that Monday in November, Bock or Kamsler wrote $380,000 in checks on Clark's personal account, which apparently hadn't been used in nine months. Checks went to Dr. Henry Singman, her internist, for $50,000; nurse Hadassah Peri for $60,000; her husband Daniel Peri for $60,000; accountant Kamsler for $60,000; personal assistant Christopher Sattler for $60,000; nurse Geraldine Coffey for $30,000; goddaughter Wanda Styka for $50,000, and nurse Erlinda Ysit for $10,000. That was followed three weeks later by a check to attorney Bock for $60,000. In all, $440,000.
Claudio Papapietro
Irving Kamsler, Huguette Clark's longtime accountant, pleaded guilty in October 2008 to attempting to disseminate indecent material to minors on AOL. The court sentenced him to five years of probation, but he was allowed to keep his license as a certified public accountant. In a letter he told his client only the barest details of the case.
Through the years her main private nurse, Hadassah Peri, received $2,520 a week, or $131,040 a year. She also was paid a lump sum of $5 million in 2009. As previously reported, Clark gave Peri the money to buy four homes for herself and her children. If the will is upheld, Peri would receive about $34 million, in addition to Clark's doll collection, value unknown.
Beth Israel Medical Center, the New York hospital where she lived for years, received $4.9 million from December 1997 through February 2011, not counting payments to various doctors and departments. That works out to about $1,000 per day. The hospital has declined to explain why it allowed Clark, who was said to be quite healthy, to live in hospital rooms for the last 22 years of her life.
Her primary physician, internist Dr. Henry S. Singman, received regular monthly payments peaking at $5,000 a month, or $521,000 during this period. He is named in her will for another $100,000.
Her closest friend, Suzanne Pierre, received regular payments of $50,000 for service as a social secretary, totaling $1.7 million. Pierre also received a $10 million gift back in 2000. Pierre, who was the widow of Clark's physician, died just weeks before Clark.
Only a few public charities appear in the accounting. The largest is $810,000 to the Corcoran Gallery of Art in Washington, D.C., where the bulk of her father's art collection resides. In the will, the Corcoran stands to receive one of Monet's Water Lilies series, a small canvas valued at roughly $25 million. The painting has not been seen publicly since 1925.
Bock or Kamsler wrote checks for other small charitable gifts: $1,000 to the Music Academy of the West, $100 to the New Canaan Firefighters Benevolent Fund, $25,000 to the Santa Barbara Community Arts Music Association. Two gifts were made in the spring of 2010, just after her case came to light: $10,000 to the Paul Clark Home founded by her father in Butte, Mont., and $1,000 to the Spence School, her alma mater in Manhattan. Other charitable gifts may have been made from her personal checkbook.
Clark, who had no children of her own, apparently paid tuition and fees for several students. Bock or Kamsler wrote checks to Boston College ($53,000), Boston University ($20,000), New York City College of Technology ($6,600), and four Catholic Schools: Long Beach Catholic School ($25,000), Sacred Heart Academy ($47,700), St. Bernard's School ($15,000), and Saint Ignatius Loyola School ($500).
She made payments to the IRS for $45 million, and New York state income tax of $15 million. And state gift tax payments of $975,000.
Her unoccupied 5th Avenue apartments, said to be the largest property under a single ownership anywhere on the prestigious avenue, cost $3.75 million during these 15 years just for the taxes and co-op fees, peaking at $28,844 per month. She has 15,0000 square feet on two floors of 907 Fifth Ave. at 71st Street. Another $900,000 went to Anton Sattler Management Co., which handled affairs at her apartment. And $1.5 million was paid through the years to Christopher Sattler, who worked as a personal assistant and property manager. He also would receive $500,000 if the will is upheld.
Her vacant country home in New Canaan, Conn., on the market for several years at $24 million, cost over $100,000 a year just to pay the property taxes.
Her unoccupied Santa Barbara oceanfront estate, with an estimated value of $100 million, cost her $8.8 million in various operating costs from 1997 to 2011.
All of Clark's properties are locked down now, protected by the court until the case is resolved.
The expenditures will be investigated by attorneys for the New York County Public Administrator, whose office was appointed by the Surrogate's Court to serve as a third temporary executor, along with Bock and Kamsler. One of the roles of the Public Administrator in this case is to make sure the estate was protected, both before and after Clark's death.
To keep up with the spending, her attorney and accountant were raising money during this period as well: $87 million transferred in from a custody account at J.P. Morgan, $15 million from a Bank of America account, a $5 million loan from J.P. Morgan in 2009, the $6 million sale of one of her Stradivarius violins, and $52 million in sales at Sotheby's. (Her last major purchase at Sotheby's was in 2000 for $124,000.)
Huguette Clark did save considerable money through the years in one respect: electricity. As she lived in a hospital room on the Lower East Side, the Con Edison bill at her 15,000-square-foot apartments on Fifth Avenue rarely rose above $100 a month.
---
If you have information on Huguette Clark's finances, use the links below to contact Bill Dedman.
The full archive of Clark stories, photos and videos is at http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38810137/.
Leave a Comment:
bet the lawyers end up with most of it
Please tax these people as they always been taxed. Stop kissing their insane a$$es and trying to eliminate the Middle Class.
Wealth built on Shennagins!
View the pictorial videos:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35266269/ns/business-picture_stories/displaymode/1247/?beginSlide=1
I'm sure this translated to jobs from the 1%. Let's see... One lawyer, one accountant, a few bank tellers, a doll distributor, security specialists... that should do it.
Whoops, hey Bock I think we forgot to give the Probate judge 10 million.
How blind, obtuse, and/or stupid are these people who continue to insist that these people are job-creators?
Ms. Clark's wealth did NOT create jobs. The wealth that was drained from her accounts did NOT produce jobs.
The lawyer, the accountant, these are the people who take money from the pockets of working people. We are supposed to appreciate their contribution? Really? They muddy the law, they twist justice beyond recognition, they manipulate balance sheets, they create worthless paper!
Dammit, there is no value in this, yet they walk away with billions upon billions of dollars and we are supposed to admire their work. And you know what's really sick? We let this happen.
Are you surprised?
The same will happen to most of us. Money or no money
You die and if you are unlucky, the family vultures will have a battle and feast.
The MOST dangerous threat to your wealth are the attorneys, brokers, and bank "wealth management" departments.
The only wealth they are managing is their own.
.
Good job thought police, ya don't like anything mentioned about LAUYERS? I don't remember so many offensive comments that justified this many deletions. LOL!
Exactly what sort of tax are you proposing? You've got to make money in order to tax it. This woman had no job so there would have been nothing to tax. Are you suggesting we start taxing peoples savings? And btw, when the Clark family made all of their money there was no income tax so your demand of "tax these people as they always (have) been taxed" doesn't really make much sense.
As an accountant I don't just find this disgusting, I find it personal. Way to give our profession a bad name. His license should be revoked and he should be thrown in jail.
It seems to me that this woman paid her taxes dearly. She inherited her fortune from her father. She owed nothing to anyone so if she wanted to live her life in seclusion then I see absolutely nothing wrong with that.
Sounds to me like she payed her fair share. I'm sure all those taxes paid the salaries of many a New York bureaucrat. Now that's productive job creation. More worthless public sector leeches. Just what you lefties want.
The Top 1% at its Finest
Well, if you ask me, just outright theft. Nothing new in corporate america. Greed, evil humans thinking they were too smart to get caught. Where were the rest of the family before her death. Sounds like a lot of love in that family and her employees!!!! (smile) The woman was sick mentally and for many years her possessions were long gone.
Who else wants a "magic checkbook" like hers with 43 million in it? I can't even imagine.
The story was a rather sad one. Poor lady felt her family had turned on her and were just after money so she gave it to the only people who did care for her, such as the nurse.
Or was it that the lawyers and nurses conspired to get the will re-drawn and cut her off from her family?
Guess we never find out.
Sandtrich#1.1: No my friend. Tax 'em more and they might take their money and leave the country. Leave them alone and they can create jobs allowing their money to "trickle down" upon us. Hee, hee. Can you believe conservative reasoning? We need rain? No!!! Wait for the rich to piss on us. Our pantries will burst with plenty! Meanwhile, too many have no taters.
I just changed my name to dano h clark......where's my check that i did nothing to deserve ??? Money is the root of all evil....Just look at our government ???
@Backcountry164
How about a rate of taxation on UNEARNED INCOME equal to that of EARNED INCOME. That $43M deposited into her personal bank account came from somewhere (probably dividends and capital gains).
And, let's not forget that there is also the estate tax. Basically, you had more than $250M sitting IDLE FOR DECADES. That money basically employed a lawyer, an accountant, a few doctors and several nurses, a couple of personal assistants, a few dozen people taking care of the empty properties and a doll shop in Paris.
This is the most unproductive use of hundreds of millions of dollars I have ever seen. Except Wall Street bonuses (almost forgot about those).
@Backcountry164
How about a rate of taxation on UNEARNED INCOME equal to that of EARNED INCOME. That $43M deposited into her personal bank account came from somewhere (probably dividends and capital gains).
And, let's not forget that there is also the estate tax. Basically, you had more than $250M sitting IDLE FOR DECADES. That money basically employed a lawyer, an accountant, a few doctors and several nurses, a couple of personal assistants, a few dozen people taking care of the empty properties and a doll shop in Paris.
This is the most unproductive use of hundreds of millions of dollars I have ever seen. Except Wall Street bonuses (almost forgot about those).
Larry:
Im not sure what you are getting at.
Taxing dividends at the same rate as employment income is idiotic because that income was already taxed at the corporate level. In fact, contrary to what you may think, dividend income is the MOST taxed income if you track it from its source. Dividend income is already taxed higher than it should be.
With regards to capital gains - well I have 2 notes:
1) Capital gains are often offset by capital losses (when dealing with investors anyways). So even if you make the tax rate 75% for capital gains, it won't produce much more tax revenue since capital losses will be factored at 75% as well
2) Taxing capital gains at high levels is a bad idea, b/c it will discourage investment. There's a reason why capital gain tax rates are low.
I do believe that income inequality has become a problem in our economy. But this concept of 'let's raise taxes on rich people' is a stupid idea that will fail.
How about setting limits on salaries to corporate executives and sports players? These guys are taking other peoples' money for themselves - that is where the problem lies.
Jean Owens
Ms. Clark's lawyers in question put out orders to keep all family members from being able to not visit or contact Ms. Clark in any way and claimed it was by Ms. Clark's order. They were forceably removed from the heiress's life completely and is now one of the biggest reasons for the family now being in the position in which they are rebuking the wills as no one knows in which roles the lawyers may have fixed and or aquired Ms. Clark's signatures to the wills. These orders to cease and desist from making contact with Ms. Clark were given to all medical providers and staff by the attorneys and not just for family members but to prevent visits of any form from any outsiders and enforced by the medical care attendees.
My gut feelings are that this story goes much, much deeper and most likely was a conspiracy between the attorneys and medical providers to take Ms. Clark out of her home and place her under lock and key and began enforce once they had one way or the other aquired Ms. Clark's signature on the forms that gave the attorneys the Power of Attorney over her and her assets.
The world is quite unfair... While a few live among luxury and abundance, seemingly doing and giving nothing in return, the majority of the world's population lives with very little and suffers much...
Thank you for digging and doing this story and for pushing it. I have read all your articles on her and look forward to seeing the entire conspirators ring around her punished for preying on her at the end of her life. The elderly, especially the secluded, are very vulnerable to suggestion and professionals should be above this.
DavidWalker...."We are supposed to appreciate their contribution? Really? They muddy the law, they twist justice beyond recognition, they manipulate balance sheets, they create worthless paper!"
Are you talking about Congress?
mikela,
Did you read the earlier articles about the family disputes over Senator Clark's estate. The Senator actually had TWO families; one from his first wife, who died, and one with Huguette's mother (consisting of the mother and daughter). Senator Clark had set his earlier children up in businesses and professions AND established middle-class level income distributions for them to last twenty years. He left the vast majority of his wealth to his wife and daghter by her. To avoid contests to his will, he included a clause stating that anyone who contested the will was barred from receiving any benefit. Michigan courts indicated that they would enforce that clause. Apparently, Senator Clark was not close to to his children by his first wife.
Huguette probably had little care for the children of children of children of relatives who more than likely disliked or hated her for taking "their" inheritance.
Actually, Ms. Clark's retreat from society may have been her own choice, given her family background, a failed marriage, and behaviors for decades that bespeak clinical depression. Just because someone is rich, doesn't mean they are out-going, socialable or happy. Huguette's world of dolls was one which she could control, free of fear of being hurt. And how better to "disappear" than check into a hospital under an assumed name. Money probably meant nothing to her (She did buy an estate in Connecticut that she reputedly never slept in.). But she could buy privacy.
These people are nothing but a bunch of vulcher's picking away at her bank accounts. They all should be behind bars, not getting a dime more.
And here I am, trying to make it on Social Security!! And there are, these fat cats "Living Large"!!!!!!
SHEESH!!!!!
Your OLD ENOUGH as me to know better then to be damn envious of those that succeed in America....................Its a sin 'envy' is. Get over it..her family had wealth. MINE, nahhhhhhhhhhhh daddy drove an 18 wheeler back in the day, tops earned about 13 14 grand. NO moaninggggggggggg he had work, THIS land is built on people taking chances w.their monies and hitting it big. I DONT believe in any wealth distribution and envy.............most people need to stop watching their flat screen t vs, cell phones worth many bucks, a nice car to drive in, food to eat, provided by food stamps, rent monies, WTH?? YEAH WIC aid to women who have baby after baby with man after man and get tons of freebies and never work a damn day, they live off the taxes we pay. So stop moaning and be glad your alive and have some cash. DAMN people tee me off who have envy in their hearts. AND pushed to have more by the RAD LIB MEDIA. Spoiled brat kids as like 30 yr old adolecents YET, living off ma and pa...nice value system passed down. BOOO to these jerks making a disgrace all over the nation~ most have work IFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF you took the time to look at the stats.
Sheeeesh!!!!! You get social security???? wow!!! Lucky you!!!
It's not envy, jealousy, or wealth distribution. Those are words being played to you by those who want to maintain the influence big money has on our political system that bought politicians, lobbyists, and legislation that provided advantages only money could buy - tax breaks, credits, subsidies, and exemptions, which shifted the burden of carrying our economy onto the backs of the middle and lower class.
Sure these 'rich' folk pay taxes, and a lot of it. But compare it today to not only the percent of income earned paid by those in the middle and lower class, but to how much the middle and lower class has left to spend after taxes - even with a refund, to how much the 'rich' have left to tap into. I would agree that their success earned the rich much more, but the amount is so much much more because of all the tax 'advantages' they have been provided.
Our 'progressive' tax system has become 'regressive', which means that that last dollar of income the middle and lower class has left is now so much much more important to them than the last dollar of income is to the 'wealthy'. Because of those tax 'advantages' our country has given to the wealthy, they are now in a so much much more 'better off' position to help this country out than the middle or lower class. It is not a redistribution of wealth, it is a shift in the burden of maintaining our economy off the backs of those less able to do so.
Guess she paid for your social security eh?
No 1SG wife. SS is payed through payroll tax. I don't think she payed much of that. Nice try though.
JustSlapMe is correct. Back in the gilded age, millionaires paid approximately 90 percent of the tax burden in he US yet still lived extravagant lifestyles. Look at the great mansions of that era. In other words, they were NOT burdened by that responsibility. The fact being most felt they owed that for the advantages provided by the country in which they lived.
verno,
If your SS payments were dependent solely on your payroll taxes, you would not be getting anything now. The government has used all that money for other pursuits. Robbed and nearly bankrupted by exactly those tax breaks and loopholes provided. Badly invested, badly managed. That is what todays' politicians, mostly rich and morally bankrupt, have done for us.
I agree, the envy over the extremely wealthy isn't productive. Yes, most of us weren't born to vast wealth it is how it is and crying about it won't change it. What you do in your own life is up to you and whining about how so and so has too much just makes you look like a lazy child.
Verno, your SS is only paid by payroll if you have a job. If your are self sufficiently wealthy or self employed you are responsible for paying that on your own.
Ms. Huguett Clark's father started out poor and went on to succeed and employ thousands of people in multiple states! He had more than just mines as his enterprise. Many of his companies were in business decades after he sold them off. The family fortune has thrived on investments since then. Investing in others enables job creation also. How many of the whiners on this posting have ever created a job? How many whiners on here have payed $45 million in taxes to the IRS? That wasn't even her lifetime total!
Why are people so poorly informed on SS?
SS is fed through payroll taxes. While self-employed do pay payroll taxes, those who inherited their wealth do not, those who live off capital gains do not.
Similarly, SS will never lose its income. It will always get a fraction of all wages paid. It will never go "broke" in the sense of having zero cash. It will always be able to pay out something, albeit, at current projections, at some point in the future it may only be able to pay out 75% of what was "promised." But to borrow Rick Perry's phrase, it is an abject lie that SS will collapse like a ponzi scheme and pay nothing.
This is a story about elder abuse (in this case, mostly by money-grubbing lawyers). To those who mention wealth envy, this is not about wealth envy. To call it wealth envy is like saying the arrest and punishment of bank robbers is wealth envy.
Verno, not really. But you are correct about how we are told it is supposed to work. The SSA averages your yearly income to come up with the amount of $ you will receive. Yes, SS is said to be accumulated through payroll taxes, but there is not enough money to pay for all of the beneficiaries, let alone anything for that matter these days, so the congress must borrow it, on behalf of the American people who demand even more entitlements. Or so we are told. But what is really going on is up for you to decide.
@ScientistX....Ms. Huguette was an eccentric for most of her life. Her marriage failed when she was young, and she led a very reclusive unusual life from that point on. She did not have a sudden change in personality after she was old and came under these individuals care. Did anyone question the will when Leona Helmsly left $12 million to her dog? This story is about personal choice and honoring someone's wishes after they die.
A few months ago the AP checked the numbers after Buffet claimed his secretary pays a higher tax rate. Turns out millionaires pay an average of 29% of their income in Federal taxes whereas the middle class pays 15%. As for those in the "lower class" many of them don't pay any Fed tax at all after you take into account their EIC refund.
More than that, they pay no fed tax, and still get the refund. More welfare. I guess that is pretty much what you said.
Esther, I find this offensive to an extent. I am in my early 30's. Several years ago a divorce left me in so much debt that I had no choice but to move back in with my parents. I am still here. At the moment, I am unemployed and job-hunting, although I have always worked what jobs were available. Even then, I stayed here. It's a good arrangement and convenient for everyone. My dad works overseas; my mom is retired. She does not like being alone while he is at work. When he is home, they like to travel. We have several dogs; 10 of our own and fosters for our rescue group. At any given time we have 3-5 fosters. With me here, they can pick up and go anytime they want with pretty much no notice since I am here to care for the dogs. If I were not here, their travel would be curtailed by having to find and pay someone to care for (and medicate when necessary) 13-15 dogs. One of our dogs is 15 yrs old and gets twice-daily meds, plus her food has to be mashed completely. The foster dogs are always my responsibility. My dad does feed and work with them a lot when he is home just because he is working in the yard already and also he just likes them, but they are my responsibility; that includes feeding, attention, the vet care I can provide here, and taking them to the vet if they need care beyond my abilities.
Don't lump all 30-somethings together; I may live with my parents but it is convenient for all of us.
How do you get a refund,if you pay no taxes? On what is a refund based,I always thought a refund was when you got back some or all of the tax you paid in a year.Are you saying that people get a refund after they get their primary refund?I never heard of that,I think you need to explain how that works.
I never did believe that claim that Warren Buffet has a lower tax rate than his secretary does. What some people don't stop to think about is that the tax rates we talk about are actually marginal tax rates. For example, I'm in the 25% tax bracket, but it doesn't mean I pay 25% of my income in taxes. 25% is my "marginal" rate, so even though the last few dollars I earn are taxed at 25%, the tax tables are progressive, so most of my income is taxed at a much lower rate. After exemptions and credits, I usually end up paying under $6,000 on an income of about $45,000--an overall tax rate of about 13%.
ScientistX..."Similarly, SS will never lose its income." That makes me feel so much better, despite knowing SS has over $7 TRILLION in unfunded liability.
Rene...You have nothing to feel ashamed about. It was a generalization that doesn't apply to you. Besides, in some countries, it's not uncommon for 2 and sometimes 3 generations to live in the same house, and sometimes the house has been in the family for several generations.
GAdude, Buffet doesn't pay the same tax rate on all of his income. Some of it is taxed a lower rate than his secretaries income. Also, Buffet is in a position to take numerous tax breaks (loop-holes) that his secretary could never hope to qualify for. There is no law requiring Buffet to use tax breaks. If the hypocrite wants, he can voluntarily pay more taxes.
Such an interesting and sad story. You'd like to hope that these men truly did have her best interests in mind, but it's an awfully hard sell. I do feel bad for the late Ms. Clark, who apparently only wanted her privacy. Now, in death, her story will be told.
She isolated herself for most of her life for her own private reasons. The employees around her did her bidding (and then some!). I don't blame the distant relations for wanting some of the pie. Wonder where they were while the lady was alive? Did they visit her or keep in touch?
A relative of mine is doing a similar manuver now. Living with a strange family, ignoring relatives. They spend the money, my relative writes the checks. It's hard to watch and not to think about with envy. The fact is that my relative isn't doing anything out of character. Sad but true. I suspect Ms. Clark was the same way.
The millions to be spent on the upcoming trial is an ironic expense. If the employees of Ms. Clark would simply cash out the relations with some money it might be settled out of court. Say, write a check to them equal to or slightly above what the legal fees will be for both sides. Bet they'd settle quickly. Consider that this will be tied up in courts for a decade or maybe more . . .
Hope - she did not allow her relatives to visit her and I am sure to the comfort of those of those milking her.
Yea Right - my relative is the same way. And for no seriously valid reasons except suspicion, fear, and residue from a bad upbringing. So my relative will disburse wealth to strangers - cars, houses, and whatever, while some family members live below the poverty level.
You'd think growing up poor would keep people soft but sometimes it hardens them for sure. I'm still soft and getting softer by the day. ; )
Hope - sorry to hear that. Not sure of your relationship to them but it does hurt more [from my experiences] when they treat strangers better than relatives it even hurts more when others [not related] come in between the relationship.
I remembered reading about Huguette some years ago before she died, this attorney had total control and no one could see her without his permission. This was the complaint brought on by her family. Since she then was considered of sound mind [no one independently verified this] they had no standing.
The complaint from the family was that he made no attempts to bring them together, just the opposite. They were not allowed to hear from her first hand about her feeling towards them.
Yea Right - This would make a great flick. Perhaps Hollywood will turn a movie out detailing this whole story. I'd sure buy a ticket! Especially if the story were accurately told.
and nobody thinks these crooked attorneys did anything wrong??????
Seeing how they are investigating them apparently someone thinks they did something wrong.
Don't forget these attorneys are being investigated in another case of like. I have seen some of the documents of the fees they charged and I should be so lucky. One fee to transfer funds they charged this gentleman $25,000 and what does it take to transfer monies maybe 30 minutes. These guys know how to work the system. By the way it was the attorneys that said she did not want to see her relatives not her. In fact I don't remember seeing any documents that say that just their word of mouth. As far as I can see this Lady of wealth kept to herself, did not get into politics or anything like that and it looks like made good investments and some of you bad mouth her. Why? because she was born into wealth? Some of us work for our money and some of are born into wealth and yes, some us steal our wealth, that doesn't mean you lump all wealthly people in one pile. We are talking about a Lady who chose her dolls over people and who could blame her.
Poor lady fot ripped of by a couple of crooks. At least he had the GOP on her side. Tax cuts for the wealthy--yea!
After her divorce, Clark probably remained single because being so WEALTHY she probably had been raised to believe that she could not trust anyone.
From the article and based on human nature - not being able to trust anyone seems to be the case!
Ya KNOW people who act all uppity and teed off that she had this wealth? Stuff it............This is America..her daddy made good and this is what democracy is ALL ABOUT. My daddy drove an 18 wheeler, A dem all his life till babies started being killed via abortion and fiat, and I am not PI#$ing and Moaning about ALL that she had. IT WAS HERS to do as she choose. YOU ALL WANT wealth distribution head to Cuba or another commie country. ITS clear she paid her taxes..................do you want 80% of her monies in taxes to give to lazy asses? I dont..............................I am HAPPY when people hit it BIG in this LAND~ Means demoncracy is in action. ENVY is BIG in this nation and promoted by the rad lib media as a GOOD THING. stuff that TOO. Yeah she was ripped off by thiefs of attorneys and accountants.....too bad. They will be caught in their scandal and that will be that.
Good grief, Esther. Please get a grip. 25Walker did voice any jealousy. He questioned whether Ms Clark's wealth had isolated her, a valid question.
Just what are you p*ssing and moaning about? It has to be something?
just pissin and moanin about the pissers and moaners
Boy, Ester, between the bold lettering, the periodic hits on the CAPS button, and the nonsensical rant, you could give a migraine a headache.
PS. Read the family history. Clark's "Daddy" was a scumbag; a typical baron of those days (GOP of today?). So, if by your definition this is being successful in America, then the OWS movement definitely has my support!
It is pretty obvious to me that it is ridiculously hard to spend that much money. When you have more money than you can spend, maybe it is time to start a philanthropic institute or something.
25Walker I think you're right, I am not wealthy and I know the only person I can trust is myself. Too bad she had to have employees to take advantage.
Well, you could also say that she had comfortable if perhaps not emotionally fulfilling life, and these people cared for her.
The real lesson I draw from her story, is that it is dangerous and emotionally limiting to isolate oneself.
...I do find myself wishing she was a distant cousin, and that I was somehow named in her will.
Screw the bastard lawyers!
Sounds like she was kept "medicated" in a hospital while scumbags robbed her. When it's all said and done, I hope the crooks are stripped of every penny and sent to jail for the rest of their lives.
You just pop whatever you want your sick heart to speak well let me tell you no hospital would keep a patient "MEDICATED" so some scumbag could rob her get that straight!!!!! If she hated her family and decided to give her inheritance to someone else thats none of our business just to remind you there are all different cooks out their heiress Leona Mindy Roberts Helmsley left how much to her dog. Come on wake up and whats your problem
Gee Grandma. you sound a little unhinged. Get that straight!!!!! I have worked in more than 1 hospital in more than 1 state and have seen some crazy things going on within a hospital setting. Here is an old adage you should know, money talks and BS walks! What's YOUR problem?
This continual misinformation about Leona Helmsley's dog makes me nuts. She didn't leave money 'to her dog', she established a trust for the care and maintenance of the dog for the rest of its life. At which point the remainder (which was most of it) reverted to her Charitable Foundation, which is where most of her money went in the first place.
This ones a really tough one. Because she was so "odd" her whole life. Who's to say that she really didn't want all this stuff done? Its really hard to tell. Common sense says no one in their right mind would do that but....
Jason - you hit the nail on the head "no one in their right mind would do that" ....was she in her right mind? There was a lot she did that made no reasonable sense including not wanting to see her family and the attorney and accountant helped, vigirously, to make sure her wishes were carried out.
From what I see those guys shoudl go to jail.
Its not "her family"...when the Senator died he split his estate among his two families...Ms Clarke being the youngest of the second...the first family had an even split. The so called "her family" are the distant 2nd and 3rd cousins she never really had an association with. In effect, total strangers...not "family".
The whole story is sad and the lawyers should be investigated etc, but for distant relatives to make claims on the estate is not right.
Asotunded by the paltry sums that were given to charity, but Ms Clake seems to have desired to leave some items in the public trust, i.e the estate and art in Santa Barbara...
Also she was apparently clear of mind well into her 100's...just a recluse and suspicious of the world, but was aware of the world outside her realm.
Father made fortune exploiting working folk while pillaging and poisoning the environment (Butte is a mere 100 miles upstream from home, so I know). Daughter spent fortune on doll collection and building illegal Israeli settlements on Palestinian ground. Injustice breeds injustice.
Ditto! Exactly.
whiners cause YOUR daddy didnt hit the jackpot? neither did mine....THIS is America last I checked about 3 years ago...............anyone can make millions IF its the right decisions they make and quit w/the sweat of others brows...the old man had to put up cash to make cash~ FYI my daddy drove a 18 wheeler and tops made about 13 grand back in the day. NO WHINING HERE
What the hell? Jeez, Esther, cut the rant!
Most people are sick of hearing people whine about what other people have. I've known people who came into a little money and squandered it on bling and 500 dollar shoes... stupid crap. Ask lottery winners how they're doing right now, most of them don't have any money anymore.
Esther,
If I have to read about your "daddy" driving an 18 wheeler one more time, I'm going to throw MYSELF under an 18 wheeler. Give it a rest already, or at least learn how to write something without sounding like a raving lunatic, or even worse, a troll. Take a chill pill.
Esther: You seem a bit bitter. Perhaps that's why everything seems like "whining" to you. Actually, I was merely stating a fact, because I certainly have no ambitions to earn riches while raping the land and the people. I don't for one second believe that this would make me (or humanity in general) any happier. I am entirely content raising my little child in a humble one-bedroom cottage in Montana, where she can breathe clean air, drink clean well-water, learn to love the wildlife on the mountain behind her home and, above all, learn to care for people and the land. I'd much rather do the non-profit work I do at an animal shelter than to leave a legacy like the one seen in Butte/Anaconda: stunted trees, poisoned rivers, and history-books laden with sad stories of long-suffering working families.
And not a dime went to the communities of Butte and Anaconda, which were so handily bled by her father and are now in great need many decades later.
Oh, but that's just the way of capitalism and the world of the Job Creators. Silly me.
Well, he was a "job creator" back in the day, but those that didn't die working for him ultimatly lost their jobs when the mines "petered" out. Now that's capitalism at it's best! Please pardon the pun pete.
The elevator operators lost their jobs when they invented elevators with buttons too. The private sector eliminates obsolete jobs and forces us to find the most efficient ways to serve one another. Only the state keeps non-functioning employees ad infinitum.
well said, Nick
Nick,
It will always be cheaper to exploit someone for cheap labor. The state simply can't outsource its labor to places like China. Automation is expensive and you have to pay engineers with fancy degrees lots of money to keep things running smoothly.
The states are outsourcing already. Most states now contract for prisons. Many states now contract for probation officers. States outsource their payrole to contractors. Local( city) trash removal, buses, payrole, are all contractors.
Pete,
Figure out how many years has it been since the Father made his money.. Why hasn't anyone
done anything about the land since? Everyone sits around waiting for a pot of money to be dropped
into his or her lap. This is an odd story, but it has nothing to do with any of us. I find it a good read.
Quit laying guilt on this woman. She did as she pleased and almost everyone here is just jealous
and envious they didn't get a piece of the pie.. If she had been public, someone would have killed
her and that would have been the end of the story. Would you have liked that better.
And for goodness sakes, forget these occupiers. They are a useless bunch of wants wants wants.
If you don't start figuring what or who is behind this movement fast, you will waste all of your time
while you could be making a living. You all just make me ill, wasting your time when you could be
building a good life for you and your families.. I can just imagine the obits of these Poor wannabes.
Died with a protester sign, crying give me give me.
When you think of how she lived I am sad for her. I have been following the story for a couple of years before she died. Having all the money you could ever dream of did not make her happy. I read an article that her old nurse said that she was like a childs mind, she didnt have adult conversations with anyone. She played and drank her tea with her dolls. If it was appropreiate I bet she would have left the money to her dolls.
Seems to me the money is what put her into hiding to begin with. The greedy family that "thinks" they are intitled to her money only because they are a cousin?! That is shamefull!! Shows why she didn't want anything to do with them. Sounds to me like that is all they wanted from her was some money.
What really sickens me is the so called "hired hands" the attorneys and bankers that she delt with. I hope they are forgiven before they die. What a shamefull way of earning a paycheck. The money should be given away the way she wanted it. PERIOD. It was no ones money but her own to begin with.
Why did her caretakers receive such large sums of money? At 104, makes me think she was kept 'alive' for years by means of life support so the bilking could go on.
Pollyanna, Perhaps this was her decision.. There will be instructions left in her hand writing to
support this.. Quit worrying about HER money.. She did what she wanted to do. If not it will all
come out in the end.. If so the Government will grab all the money left, and that will be the end of it.
Crying is not going to get any of us a pot of gold. Only hard work, a good mind and the desire to
make a good living. We are very fortunate to live in this great country where for NOW, we have the
opportunity to make great choices and a good living.
Everyone has the right of choice and that means she did not consult you before making her choice so her accountant and lawyer were the lucky ones not you, me nor her "FAMILY" too bad. Everyone becomes a crook here if "we " don't like it. My grow up and cleanse your heart
Stop with the fear factor, already. THIS is a great county and WILL continue to be (using your emphasis strategy). The government will NOT take the money. If the will is invalid, they will look for a previous will. If there is none, or it is invalid, it will go to her relatives.
Yes, her relatives. The descendants of her half-siblings who blew their portion of her Father's estate and now want to split up her portion which is more than intact. Those relatives.
Beth Israel Hospital received $4.9 Million and you have to ask why the hospital allowed Clark to live there?
A Catholic in a Jewish hospital? Maybe she wasn't so crazy after all.
Bob,
DUHHH, maybe her living in this Hospital had something to do with the 4.9 million...
I am sure there was more money than reported.
Yeah, it seems odd that a Catholic would be OK with financing illegal Israeli settlements, too . . .
What do you call 1000 lawyers buried to their eyes in cement?
A good start.
I hoped the courts give the attorney and accountant all they are entitled too, that of course if the Courts do their job the right way. They should get a cell together for the rest of their lives, so they can remember what they did to Hughette Clark and what they are now doing to themselves. I hope you enjoy your new atomsphere behind bars, you deserve what at least that. Enjoy?
KEN, at this time what pray tell did they do to Hughette? She had plenty of money left, was not left
penniless so I just don't get all this rant. Until this has been cleared, quit complaining.
She did not want to be pestered to death by the likes of people posting.. Some of you just wanted
a shot at her so you could have become rich.
I wonder if you would get your head cleaned what they would find, REMEMBER everyone has the right of choice and that means she did so too, to bad she did not consult you before making her choice so her accountant and lawyer were the lucky ones not you, me nor her "FAMILY" too bad. Everyone becomes a crook here if "we " don't like it. My grow up and cleanse your heart
Jean and Grandma, your replies are silly. The state found cause to investigate, and I believe I read they talked to her before her death, and the investigation started before then. The whole case is about whether or not it was her choice to spend the money this way. Just like no one can assume the attorney, accountant, and others acted for their own self-interest (innocent until proven guilty), you can't assume it was her choice. She was 104 for cripes sake. She may well have been of sound mind, but given her advanced age and the questionable distributions, I'd say the odds are against the attorney and accountant. That has nothing to do with "jealosy" or "envy." It's outrage that someone would take advantage of an elderly woman.
SLQ1,
Yes the state is investigating, BUT no charges have been laid and NO trial has occurred. So NO jury has decided whether a crime has occurred. In the greater scheme of things, the lawyer and accountant weren't great crooks if they have only made off with a few million. Leaving the "big" score to probate seems a bit more than risky. As for her questionable distributions, she had roughly $400 million dollars so we cannot assess what she may have felt apropriate by middle-class standards.
Tax cuts for the wealthy? Add up the taxes paid by the estate mentioned in the article........it is staggering the amount that was paid to various government agencies............
It was "her" money...........she was entitled to give any amount to anyone she wanted - she bought houses for people, made donations on their behalf, paid for education expenses, etc................
She inherited all this money from her father - she is hardly a criminal for that........... She may have been "odd", but that is no crime.............
The Surrogates Court has determined the accountant & the attorney may continue to serve as adminstrators of the estate, with a representative appointed by the Court................ There is no evidence of "bilking" or any other improper expenditures - it is what the woman is presumed to have wanted.............
The legal battle is coming from those who were not included in her will - that's how these things always start....
MSNBC is so full of themselves - how about reminding people that Obama approved a $545 million dollar loan to Solyndra, that was taxpayer money and that none of it can be recovered under the Bankruptcy action; now there's real financial fraud you phony bastards...............
Hooray for you...someone finally left a factual intelligent comment on our "Tax Dollars" at work..Someone needs to put this in a " Video". say of...Comments of the time and where Occupy really should be camping out, on DC's well manicured lawns!!! I would help make it Viral!!!
Thanks for keeping it real Sissyphus
right on! -- -tired of the class warfare ows crowd -- the lets soak the rich mentality is almost embarrasing for me to hear -- never in my life did i ever think americans of all people would be jealous of other people who made their money and fortunes legitamitly
--- sound like a bunch of left wing lenin marxists ---- I understand crony capitalism has to stop and corporatism has to stop --- this type of 'economy" is enabled by the fed ... by the very organization that claims to be trying to help the poor -- the ows crowd should be camping out in front of the white house or the capitol -- thats where the real crimes are being committed
.....your anger is badly misdirected --- the ows crowd is losing credibility by the bushel each and every day they just sit around and whine and complain and commit petty crimes because no one is listening to their impish and assinine arguments ---- grow up you @!$%#in' losers!!!
I think the big deal here is that the lawyer and accountant had so much access to her and her money. And I think those that were involved in the will should expect this type of oversight whether or not they did anything wrong. We can obviously only see one side of the story and it seems rife with criminal activity, but that doesn't mean there is any...we've all watched 1 too many csi's, law and orders, insert cop/lawyer show here, that our imaginations run wild.
Sisyphus,
I also agree. Though some things may seem suspicious on the surface, none of passes the stink of a smoking gun as yet. There seems to be no real departure in Ms. Clark's behaviour over the past twenty years. She had already isolated herself from the California estate and the Connecticut estate. Leaving the Fifth Avenue appartment is no really a stretch. And considering the apparent family rift caused by her father's will, I am not surprised that she did not want to "deal" with her distant and estranged family. And any the fees, salaries or gifts she made/paid do not seem out of line with someone of her wealth. Nor did those fees, salaries or gifts impoverish her.
If a DA or Grand Jury can find evidence of wrong-doing, let them. And let a jury decide.
SISSY, I could not agree with you more... Right on.
Sissy, you say, "There is no evidence of "bilking" or any other improper expenditures - it is what the woman is presumed to have wanted." If that's true, why is the investigation continuing? Why are the criminal charges still pending? You have no evidence of that. Yes, the attorney and accountant are currently allowed to remain as executors, but no final decision on that issue has been made. Until then, they are acting, but under close supervision. That's hardly exoneration. More like purgatory. I'll bet they're sweating.
I see "The 1%" has entered the MSNBC lexicon for other news stories now too, getting warmed up for the narrative for the 2012 election.
Hey Nick, hot diggety dog, hey Nick,
Clearly there is no "smoking gun" here. This woman knew full well what she was doing. She knew she would not be taking it with her. The only disturbing part is that the greedy relatives have come out of the woodwork and will attempt to break the will. I only hope that the lawyer did a top notch job preparing the will and that it will stand intact against the relatives assault. Clearly Hugette wanted nothing to do with these relatives for many many years and intentionally excluded them for personal reasons best known to her.
As far as the income taxes she has paid, it is disgusting that one person should have to pay so much. Income taxes should be capped at a maximum of $500,ooo. per year.
The millions she was taxed went to support losers and deadbeats who contribute nothing and want everything. A Federal Sales Tax would solve the problem of the 47% of Americans who pay no income tax and leech off of the rest of us. We need more people like Hugette Clark and fewer poor and needy.
If the USA does not stop paying people to be poor via welfare, the whole country will look like Haiti in 50 years. The breeding of the poor must be stopped or the future here is an ugly one. I am all for immigration as long as the immigrants are wealthy and bring the wealth with them. We need more yacht people and fewer boat people.
@appletoad
I'm curious and perhaps you'll further explain your proposal of the $500,000. maximum cap on income taxes. Thanks.
$500,000 is more than plenty for any one person or business to be paying, especially when you consider that 47% of Americans pay no income tax, and the top 5% pay 70% of all tax collected. The problem are all the people that pay in nothing and live off of welfare. Success should not be penalized, and failure should not be rewarded. A simple FAIR concept.
@appletoad
Thanks for replying. Just one more little clarification. Try to bear with me now, if a flat tax rate were instituted would you support those um... shall we say extremely wealthy entities being exempt from paying the same percentage as everyone else once they hit the cap? As in no taxes whatsoever on the rest of say... oh.. the remaining billions of their income? Thereby causing the need for the rest of us to make up any shortfalls?
You say "clearly" there was no smoking gun, and she "knew full well what she was doing." Where's your proof of that? The investigation is ongoing. That means there's been no decision. That means what you say is nonsense.
Who are you, one of the greedy disinheireted relatives? Good luck trying to break the will. It is iron-clad!
Mr. Blue, EE Guy, you're suspended for a day for violating #1 of the Code of Honor.
Hope the administrator is looking to see what became of her jewelry, take a look at those diamond bracelets in the photo! Sure the photo is from a long time ago, but she had no need to sell them and they're surely worth a lot more than 99% of us make in a year!
POOR SCOTTI, wants a bracelet...SO what if they are valued at more than you make in a year?
You poor 99ers.. Get a job
boo-hoo-hoo,stop crying liberal underachievers&start making money!
This is a sad story and I hope it is settled fairly and FOR ONCE MSN ACTUALLY DOES A GOOD REPORTING JOB
Ruset, you call this good reporting?
Sad story about a bunch of blood sucking vampires bleeding the fortunes of an eccentric woman. Some of those fees paid out are beyond ridiculous. I'm guessing that she was too crazy to know that she was being robbed. Now those people who were stealing from her for all of those years stand to benefit from the will. That is mind-boggling when you consider much nicer folks out there are struggling to get food on the table.
Mr. Blue,
Were you in the room as the "vampires bled the fortunes"? She paid what she paid. And she was apparently also noted for dismissing alot of staff and nurses over the years as well. I believe Ms. Clark chose to isolate herself from the world, and paid handsomely to maintain that isolation.
As for "much nicer folks" having a hard go. That is a specious argument, one without any bearing on Ms.Clark or her estate.
Mr. Blue, had it been you sucking the blood, it would have been ok, am I correct? What do you think the welfare bums do each and every day, but suck the blood out of we tax payers...
You people need lesson 101 economics.. Oh and you consider yourself a much nicer person that
should have your table prepared with food abundance? Give me a break. Sign up for food stamps
as the rest of you.
If you're for the wealthy keeping their hard-earned (through inheritance) money, how do you square that with the attorney and attorney misappropriating her funds, if they did? Shouldn't she be able to keep her wealth, even when old and sick, and possibly of feeble mind? Until the investigation is finished, there's no way to know. You can't assume it was her wishes, any more than anyone can assume it wasn't.
So bashing people here for expressing concern for this poor woman is not productive. If the government had taken it, you'd be screaming. But because her attorney and accountant may have taken it, it's all fine and dandy so you can spout your talking points. That argument is so transparent, it's laughable.
I really detest the manipulation and messaging that goes on in these comment fields. Thank goodness most people don't spend much time here.
Why do some here so venomously attack the working poor and glorify the taking 1% when most of the 1% percent thinks the very same thing about the individual that is making the comment?
no one is attacking the working poor -- enough with the liberal bleeding heart scenario --- I am tired of people attacking successful people --- and wanting to knoock them down a peg or two because of petty jealousy --- I understand wanting to go after people who commit financial crimes and people who game the financial system --- the real crimes are being committed by the fed as they enable the bailouts and they enable the banks to be reckless by artificially creating cheap credit and inflation by printing oodles of money out of thin air ---- the only way to end the crony capitalism and corporatism is to get the fed out of the economy and allow free market enterprise to flourish --- the fed should be regulating the market ( that is calling balls and strikes when they see financial violations and people tramplinng on other peoples rights) not artificially setting up the market to fail by cozying up to lobbyists and giving in to all of their financial whims --- freddie and fannie must go --- GSE's are nothing more than a statist corporations that can never fail no matter how badly they operate because the fed will always bail these incompetant people out --- do you get it now !!!!???? --- the terrifying part is that we have a sitting president who is enabling this "hate the successful people" mentality, with his policies and rhetoric --- this administration has got to go --- he is tearing this nation apart at the seams.....
It sounds as though the lawyer & accountant were having a field day with her money. More disturbing to me is the fact that a hospital kept this woman as a 'patient' for 22 years & made millions. The final details of this saga should be very interesting!
Rest in peace Ms. Clark. I do not know how you could willingly stay in one room for over twenty years. I know I could not. I have had a bad cold for ten days and have been in my small apartment for ten days. I want to get outside so badly because I have "cabin fever". Just imagine, Ms. Clark WILLINGLY remained in ONE room for over twenty years!
I am stunned!
appletoad Do you know what discretionary income is? Fewer and fewer people have this type income and at some point you will probably be one of those. All Tax should be on the discretionary and not the survival income. Then the wealth of this nation would be paying a fair share and so would the poor. Right now the poor pay far more in taxes than the wealthy under this criteria, especial if their discretionary income is negative. (like more and more of your neighbors every day)
What exactly do you consider survival income? Your millionair may consider his $25,000/month house payment part of his survival income...
Alpha, how do you figure the poor pay more? That is outrageous and almost funny..
The poor today have so many ways and do use these for their poor survival help..
Ya want a list? Oh and the earned income tax credit. Poor babies.. Most of these
poor send their children out with $300 shoes, with matching jeans. You have no idea
what you are talking about. Economics 101
I am sorry but income tax should not be "capped" If you are making a $1billion a year, you should not be capped at paying $500,000, that is 0.05% of your income, when someone making $34,500 a year would have to pay $8625 in taxes, or 25% of their income. If you made a billion dollars and paid the same percent as someone making 35k a year, you would be paying $250million. I fail to see how it is unfair to charge the same percent of taxes as anyone else pays? You make $1 dollar, 25% goes to the government for the benefit of society. You make a billion of those $1 dollars, than 25% goes to the government for the benefit of society.
By your logic sales tax and property tax should be capped too, why should someone who buys a $200million house pay any more property taxes than someone in a $200,000 condo? Why should someone pay more sales tax on a $100,000 BMW, than someone buying a $10,000 Nissan.
If you want to have and use 75% of a nations resources, wealth and businesses, you can pay 75% of the cost of that nation to defend itself (and your resources), improve its economy (and thus your wealth) and its workforce (your businesses' workers)
RPV:
We can argue about the percentage number, but as long as you apply that logic to EVERY working person, I have no problem with it. As long as you make sure everyone is paying the exact same percentage, I can agree with your statement.
But here is where the problem lies: Once that income is earned, it can't be taxed again (and shouldn't be taxed again) so the person that earns the 1 billion in year one, once they have paid tax on it, should not be forced to pay tax on it again year after year. Earn it once, tax it once and we have no problem.
But too many on the left want to tax that same income over and over again. Earn it, and tax it, invest it and then tax the investment, spend it and tax the purchase, die and tax the estate. NO!! Earn it once, tax it once, and you've done your part. If the government can't live on that, then you've got too much government.